True Story of Indian Science

Dr Raj Vedam will be participating in a session on ‘Unravelling the layers of History and Kavya’ organized by the Center for Soft Power, Indic Academy and Heritage Trust, at Bangalore on August 31 

Like many of his generation, Dr Raj Vedam grew up in an India with little TV and a lot of reading. It was a time when people read voraciously on a range of subjects – ‘Indic and Western, and reacted incredulously to the history presented in our textbooks’. It took Dr Vedam several years of reading to track down the roots of narratives to get to a position of reasonable deconstruction. He co-founded the think-tank, Indian History Awareness and Research and to work on the Scientific Validation of Indian History. In this interview he explores commonly ignored and misinterpreted facts of Indian history

How old is the Indian ‘civilisation’?

Academics identify “civilization” when a culture shows “urbanism” and has a script, implying diversification of professions and the ability to communicate knowledge to its present and future generations. David Frawley calls out the paradox of the Vedic people who show large literary works but with no archaeological record of urbanism, and Harappa which shows high urbanism but with apparently no literary works. The word “civilization” is thus applied rather narrowly in an academic sense.

The facts are that there is great antiquity of the Indian people as attested by astronomical references in literary works, their long gestation with knowledge systems in a wide variety of areas, evidence of high thinking in the corpus of literary works, evidence of archeological finds in Bhiranna dating back 8000 years, several finds in the Sindhu-Saraswati basin, and an interesting find of an underwater structure in Dwarka 8500 years ago as all indicative of an advanced complex society, with an emphasis on the oral record rather than a written record.

If we admit these as indicative of “civilization”, then we have an Indian civilization from at least 10,000 years ago. If we insist on a written script, then Harappa would qualify for civilization status from 5000 years ago, though there are critics such as Witzel who claim that Harappa was an illiterate society by showing the paucity of literary records from Harappa that are lengthier than 10 signs. If we insist on a phonetic script encoding language such as Brahmi and urbanism then Magadha dating to 300 BCE would qualify for civilization.

I tend to see the debate as pedantic, denying the importance of the oral record that has been a hallmark of the Indic civilization for the longest time, and favor earlier timelines for the Indian civilization. I am hopeful that future generation archeologists will uncover evidence that can help to better resolve the question of antiquity of the Indian civilization.

Who or what would you say are the main people/events responsible for the distortion of Indian history. Why do you say so?

Several forces inimical to the Indic civilization are responsible for the distortion of Indian history.

The colonial Indologists tried to bring the chronology of the Indian king lists down to fit a Biblical chronology of creation at 4004 BCE which they subscribed to. In reducing the Indian chronology, they distorted the Puranic king lists by a questionable synchronization of “Sandracottos” with Chandragupta Maurya (see K.V Challam’s works). They also engineered the distancing of Indians from their ancient educational systems, by alienating Indians from their own heritage with English education, placing them in awe of the Western world by a process of deep mind-colonization.

The second inimical force was Eurocentric scholars of the 1800s who attempted to find a “linguistic homeland” for the “Indo-Aryans” in Central Asia, which led to the proposal of an “Aryan Invasion Theory”, and all of its attendant corollaries such as “Dravidianism”.

Obsequiously following Western gate-keepers of the colonial/Euro-centric Indian narrative, the liberal academic bias of present times constitutes the third inimical force. With their obligatory overuse of ill-fitting Western models such as post-modernism, feminism, subaltern studies as the only way to view all of Indian history, they position all social-dynamics with an “oppressor-oppressed” view, thereby greatly distorting Indian history.

Several powerful vested interests ranging from international agencies, organized religions, opportunistic political parties to media have a strong desire to split the Indian nation by emphasizing maliciously manufactured fault-lines, and form the fourth inimical force on Indian history. Their powerful presence in governance, public-policy, print, digital and mass media has ensured that the population has internalized a horrendous perversion passed off as Indian culture and history.

The Marxists control the education sector in India and in conjunction with the works of their cohorts above, form the fifth inimical force and are the unchallenged gate-keepers of Indian history. Several distorted identities are clearly sported by various sections of society. The most visible one is the alien identity called “caste”, in complete discordance with the Jati-Varna system. The second is the manufactured identity called “Dravidianism”. Distortions include north and south being racially different, Indian civilization is recent, Indians got knowledge from Babylon and Greece, and so on.

Given no strong ownership from Indic people of their heritage and history, these five lobbies have carried out their criminal distortion of the Indian history. We have failed as a society, because we have not been successful in recognizing, isolating and stamping out the inimical forces. The common Indian sees the impact of the great distortions listed above, but feels powerless to change the narrative. I believe people should become empowered by consciously deconstructing our thought processes, reject the deep mind-colonization upheld by the inimical forces, and take ownership of our heritage and past.

Distorters of History
Example of how linguistic construction of hypothetical PIE is made from the only real data - Sanskrit, others being academic reconstructions

How can we validate Indian history using modern science? How did Indian knowledge go out of India?

An evidence-based narration based on our best understanding of the facts can help to validate the narratives on Indian history. By deconstructing the methodologies of linguistics, genetics and archaeology, by understanding their limitations and strengths, and by understanding how claims are constructed using these methodologies, we can critique the existing narratives. By judicious understanding of scientific evidence from multi-disciplinary fields, and by bringing in the neglected internal evidence from our large corpus of Vedic works, we can advance factual narratives of Indian history.

There are at least 9 knowledge transmission routes that took information from India to the rest of the world.

(1) Vedic texts talk of the tribes Anu/Dryhu and their movement westwards out of India. We also know of a 200-year drought around 2000 BCE caused a mass migration out of India. This formed the earliest conduits for knowledge transmission.

(2) Greek travelers to India prior to Alexander, such as Pythagoras and Democritus.

(3) Indo-Greek kingdoms

(4) Buddhist and Hindu outflows to SE Asia.

(5) The Silk route that connected India and China with Mediterranean lands.

(6) Roman trade as noted in Periplus of Erythrean sea.

(7) Medieval transmissions to Europe and pre-Islamic Arab lands.

(8) Muslim period from 700 thru 1700.

(9) Colonial period from 1700 to 1947

How has the West used Genetics to distort Indian history?

The current claims made in genetics are that there were two major waves of migrations to India. The first migration is claimed around 7000 BCE by “Iranian pastoral farmers” who spread pervasively across north and south India. The second migration is claimed around 2000 BCE to the northern part of India, effectively constituting the Aryan Invasion/Migration theory. They base these opinions by performing statistical methods on limited samples and limited populations, using questionable models and methods. That there are concerns in the claims of genetics is apparent by the wide variability of results in different published works. In one paper by David Reich, they claim a 4200 year old common ancestor for the northern Indian and Central Asian, while a different work by Lucotte shows a 15,000 year old common ancestor for the same, using the high-resolution R1a-Z93 marker, by using a different sampling method. The issues of concern are: (a) use of circular logic by using models from linguistic analysis, (b) sample populations admitted; (c) sample sizes for the studies; (d) algorithmic methods used and their initializations; (e) limitations of the mathematical models to provide a global result, and other concerns. There is a tendency to conflate results from narrow studies to global applicability to a 1.3 billion population.  Perhaps in the distant future, as sample sizes approach 1.3 billion (from the present few-hundreds), then with probability 1, we can infer the presence/absence of markers in the Indian populations and their concentrations in various regions.

Confidence level in Results from Genetics

Why is archaeological evidence not seen as being convincing enough to establish antiquity? Why are history textbooks lagging behind?

The narratives in history textbooks are perhaps more than 30 years behind archaeological finds. As an example, India’s most famous archaeologist, B.B.Lal, published a paper on the continuity of the Indian civilization establishing fundamental facts on how there does not appear to be distinct periodizations between Harappa and Vedic, but rather a continuity of practices. Many settlements in Saraswati-Sindhu have been uncovered in the past few years, but NCERT textbooks are loathe to even mention the river Saraswati by name. One would expect the people in charge of state and central textbooks in India to be aware of the findings in archaeology and move to update the content. One would expect the chairpersons of the textbook publications committees across the country to be evidence-driven, using fundamental facts from archaeology.

Keezhadi is a fascinating archeological find outside of Madurai, showing an urban settlement. Upto 4.5 meters of excavation was done and artifacts recovered. Carbon dating from the 2 meter depth showed a date of 200 BCE. However, if we argue that each meter in depth is approximately equal to 1100 years using a linear approximation, we notice that the earliest layers at the 4.5 meters depth should be dated to 5000 years ago, or about 3000 BCE. This would go against the conventional thinking that southern Indian settlements should be 500 BCE and later, if the Aryan Invasion/Migration with the attendant displacement of Dravidians should be true. One awaits further information from Keezhadi to ascertain more facts.

Continuation of Civilisation - BB Lal
Epoch of Kali 3102 BCE

What evidence has been found through oceanography? A sculpture has been found older than the Harappan civilisation. What does it point to?

The National Institute of Oceanography, Chennai, sent a ship equipped with sonar to map the sea-bed off the coast of Dwarka. They reported finding a 9km long feature about 40m below the sea, which appeared to be a city fortification wall. They further dredged up a piece of wood, which they sent for carbon dating to labs in Hyderabad and Germany, which came back with dates of about 9000 years before present. Findings such as these suggest the possibility of sunken coastal civilizations. We know that the sea level went up by as much as 120 meters following the late glacial maximum ice-age melting. This could have caused the sinking of this place, approximately 9000 years ago.

How do we date history with an Indian astronomical sense?

Ancient Indians divided the sky into 27 segments of 13 and1/3 degrees each, the Nakshatra model. They were well aware of the cardinal points of astronomy, i.e., the winter and summer solstice points and the two equinoxes. Several observations of the nakshatras that were present at the cardinal points are mentioned in several ancient texts. Now the Earth is experiencing a 26,000 year precession cycle, due to which the nakshatras at the cardinal points slowly change. By understanding this phenomenon, and computing the Precession rate at 963 years/nakshatra. For example, the Vedanga Jyotisa notes the Winter Solstice at Dhanista Nakshatra. We are approximately 4 Nakshatras away in the present times Winter solstice. The Vedanga Jyotisa can be dated precisely to 1440 BCE. This way, using ancient astronomical observations, we can date the time precisely using the celestial calendar.

What are India's greatest contributions to Math. What is Pythagoras' connection to India?

From the decimal number system mentioned in the Vedas to an enumeration of very large numbers, ancient Indians developed deep works in geometry, algebra, positional arithmetic, the concept of zero, trigonometry, spherical geometry, approximations of functions, solutions of equations and infinite series, the precursor of calculus. Some important works were Baudayana’s Sulba Sutras, Aryabhatiya, Surya Siddhanta, Mahabhaskariya, Brahmasputa Siddhanta, Siddhanta Shiromani, Yuktibhasa among others. Astronomy was the main application that gave impetus for applied mathematics.

Pythagoras is well-known to have come to India around 500 BCE, and returned to Greece with a deep understanding of Vedanta, Indian mathematics that included the right-angled triangle theorem, and music. Pythagoras founded a gurukulam style of school, advocated a vegetarian lifestyle, believed in reincarnation, and that the goal of life was to better oneself to merge with Brahman. His successors Socrates, Plato and Aristotle continued in the tradition of Pythagoras. Pythagoras is an important link in our understanding of early transmission of knowledge from India to Greece.

“An ‘aha’ moment in Citrakāvya will go a long way in sustaining interest in Sanskrit” – Dr Shankar Rajaraman

Dr Shankar Rajaraman will be speaking at an event organised jointly by the Center for Soft Power, Indic Academy and Heritage Trust ‘Uncovering the Layers of History and Kavya’ on August 31 in Bangalore

     Psychiatrist and Sanskrit poet Dr Shankar Rajaraman likens Citrakāvya or Sankrit ‘wonder poetry’ to tight rope-walking. First, there is the constraint of having to walk in the extremely narrow space provided by the rope that is tied at some precarious height. Second, when the rope-walker makes it to the end, the spectators are jubilant.

Recently honoured with the Presidential Award 'Maharshi Badrayan Vyas Samman’ for his outstanding contribution to the field of Sanskrit language and literature, Devīdānavīyam and Citranaiṣadham are two of his Citrakāvya-based works.

Dr Shankar says ‘Citrakāvya’ is usually translated into English as ‘wonder poetry’ or ‘constrained poetry’.  It is a genre of Classical Indian (particularly, Sanskrit) poetry in which the poet composes verse/s amidst apparently difficult, self-imposed constraint/s (which is why it is ‘constrained poetry’). The purpose of Citrakāvya is to baffle the reader (which is why it is ‘wonder poetry’).

Citrakāvya can be of several types. One may compose a verse that employs only one, two, or three consonants. He says “To my knowledge, the best among Sanskrit verses that employ only two consonants is the following one, quoted in Vallabhadeva's Subhāṣitāvalī : tāratāratarairetairuttarottarato rutaiḥ | ratārtā tittirī rauti tīre tīre tarau tarau || The following is an English  translation of this verse by Mrs. Venetia Kotamraju and me - "A tittiri, in Ero's snare, tires not as it tunes its strain. On trees it rests, on straits nearest, to raise its notes sans restraint.” The translation makes do with four consonants - t, r, s, n).

One may also compose a verse that gives one meaning when read forwards but another when read backwards. It is also possible that a Sanskrit verse may sound as if it is written in another language. One example is the following Sanskrit verse, composed by Dr Shankar which sounds, when read out, as if it is in English. “Do not look at the written verse; just listen to it as someone reads it aloud: govinda vārdave yūno maitrī saṃsāraveśikā | ramāsarobālārko:'si harīśo'sūnaveṭdaram || Doesn't the verse sound like this - "Go win the war the way you know. My three sons are away shikar. Amass a robe all are cosy. Hurry, show soon, await the rum"?).”

There are also verses that evince a geometric pattern (say a zig-zag pattern) or a pattern that resembles a real-life object because of repetition of certain syllables at specific places. For instance, read the following benedictory verse from his Citranaiṣadham -

     namo nīrajanābhāya nityāya karuṇābdhaye | (first line)

     tamonirasanārkāya daityānīkatṛṇāgnaye || (second line)

     There seems to be nothing special about this verse at the first glance. But look carefully, and you will see that each alternate syllable - a syllable is one/two/three consonants + a vowel - is the same in the first and second lines. Let us write this down as follows for greater clarity –

na mo ra ja bhā ya ni tyā ya ka ru ṇā bdha ye
ta mo ni ra sa rkā ya dai tyā ka tṛ ṇā gna ye

Such a pattern is known as the gomūtrikā (zig-zag pattern, called "gomūtrikā" because a meandering cow urinates in a zig-zag pattern). The zig-zag pattern can be represented as follows -

na mo ra ja bhā ya ni tyā ya ka ru ṇā bdha ye
ta mo ni ra sa rkā ya dai tyā ka tṛ ṇā gna ye

When one reads the letters in the direction of the arrows, one ends up with the first line of the verse itself. Likewise, when one reads in the following manner, one ends with the second line of the verse –

na mo ra ja bhā ya ni tyā ya ka ru ṇā bdha ye
ta mo ni ra sa rkā ya dai tyā ka tṛ ṇā gna ye

 “The whole of Citranaiṣadham (consisting of more than 200 verses) is written in this pattern and narrates the story of Nala until his marriage with Damayanti. To my knowledge, this is the first full-fledged Sanskrit poem that narrates a story using the Gomūtrikā pattern in every verse. Devīdānavīyam, written prior to Citranaiṣadham, experiments with three different categories of Citrakāvya to narrate story of Goddess Durga’s victory over the demon Mahishasura.”

In this interview Dr Shankar speaks about Chitrakavya or Sanskrit ‘Wonder’ poetry.

How do you define Chitrakavya? Some say it is an imitation of poetry and not poetry itself. Is that correct?

There is good poetry. And then there is bad poetry. Rules/constraints by themselves do not make poetry bad or good. One may write bad poetry even when one is under no constraint (say, metrical, which is the least of constraints imposed on a Sanskrit poet). On the other hand, one may be able to compose exquisite poetry even after imposing several constraints on oneself. It all depends on the sāmarthya (capacity) of the poet. Traditionally, poets have often composed Citrakāvya that, no doubt, is mind-boggling, but also gives the reader a headache. Such Citrakāya is not at all understandable without the help of a commentary. When I started writing Citrakāvya, I was pretty sure it must be easily understandable to someone with a basic understanding of Sanskrit. I myself had to be convinced about the meaning of what I wrote. Furthermore, while writing Citranaiṣadham, I had a Mahākāvya (epic poem) as the model in my mind. A Mahākāvya brings within its ambit several descriptions (say, of the sunrise, seasons, cities, etc.). And I wanted to bring such descriptions even in my Citrakāvya without compromising on the lucidity of the language or the constraint imposed by the gomūtrikā pattern that I had chosen. Walking on a rope is difficult in itself. But if one must walk on a rope without the walk appearing strained and not just that, if one must, additionally, even dance and perform gymnastics on the rope, it requires extra effort and dedication. Traditional poeticians had, in front of them, Citrakāya verses that were not lucid and compromised on the poetic quality. Which is why, I feel, they called it inferior poetry or mere imitation of poetry. I, however, do not agree with this position. 

What is the connection between Shabda and chitra and artha and chitra?

Citrakāvya can be of two types, arthacitra and śabdacitra. The former hinges on a clever idea while the latter is to do with jugglery using words, part of words, or syllables. In the former case, the reader may be amused (modern readers may even laugh at the idea or deem it crass) by the manner in which the poet has worked out an idea. The idea, however, doesn’t serve a greater purpose beyond amusement. To give an example, Magha, in his Mahākāvya Śiśupālavadha (that deals with Krishna’s killing of the wicked king Śiśupāla), compares the ocean with an epileptic. The frothing ocean, tossing its arm-like waves up and down, appears to the hero, Krishna, like a person having seizures. The poet has cleverly managed to convince us how the comparison is appropriate. But, beyond that, the verse does not contribute in any manner to the larger narrative. And of all things, why would the hero, who has set out with his army, conceive of the ocean in this manner? When we speak of Citrakāvya, it is śabdacitra that we are mostly speaking about. Here, it is evident that the poet choses specific words or syllables to create an effect on the reader. A verse such as “tāratāratarairetairuttarottarato rutaiḥ | ratārtā tittirī rauti tīre tīre tarau tarau ||” gives away, at the very outset, that the poet’s intention is to use only specific consonants. I feel śabdacitra is more often effective than arthacitra in creating the wonder that Citrakāvya has as its goal.

In what ways can the poet create wonderment – play of words, play of meaning, play of letters?

    All, in fact. Let me give an example for each – Yamaka is a type of Citrakāvya where a word/part of a word (often compound words) repeats with difference in the meaning. In the sentence “She is his panicky Hispanic wife”, there is the repetition of the letters ‘h’, ‘i’, ‘s’, ‘p’, ‘a’, ‘n’, ‘i’, and ‘c’ that occur as part of different words with different meanings. All verses in first chapter of my Devīdānavīyam illustrate this type of Citrakāvya. The following is the first verse from that chapter –

praśithilayatu me duritaṃ

praṇamadamaramaulikusumarasameduritam |

aruṇotpalacāru ciraṃ

padayugamīśasya nigamavācā ruciram ||

As for play of meaning, the commonest type of Citrakāvya that can be thought of here is śleṣa (pun). There is an entire work called “Rāghavapāṇḍavīyam” in 13 long cantos that uses the device of śleṣa to simultaneously narrate the stories of Ramayana and Mahabharata. There are two ways in which one can pun – one, in which a word with two dictionary meanings is used; another, in which a word, when split in two different ways, gives rise to two meanings. The former is called “abhaṅgaśleṣa” and the latter, “sabhaṅgaśleṣa”. An example of the latter, more difficult, type would be the sentence “pūtanāmāraṇakhātaḥ sa me'stu śaraṇaṃ prabhuḥ” – “May the Lord who is famed for killing (the demoness) Putana be my refuge”. This sentence alludes to Krishna, vanquisher of Putana. If the same sentence is split differently as “pūtanāmā raṇakhyātaḥ sa me'stu śaraṇaṃ prabhuḥ” – May the Lord, whose name is sacred and who is famed in warfare, be my refuge – it becomes a prayer addressed to Rama, whose skill in war is well-known.

Examples for play of letters have already been provided above (the verse that uses only two consonant, the verse in zig-zag pattern).

There are also other types of Citrakāvya where the focus is meter (you could have a verse that is set to one meter that hides within it another verse set to another meter) or even language (remember the verse quoted above that sounds like it is written in English but that is actually a Sanskrit one)

What are the earliest examples of Chitrakavya and which are the latest?  Are poets today using it?

Some simple types of Citrakāvya are found even in Valmiki’s Ramayana. Kalidasa uses Yamaka in one canto of his Raghuvaṃśa. However, it is in works such as Bharavi’s Kirātārjunīya, Kumaradasa’s jānakīharaṇa, Magha’s Śiśupālavadha, Ratnakara’s Haravijaya, Shivasvamin’s kapphinābhyudaya, Vastupala’s Naranārāyaṇānanda, Harichandra’s Dharmaśarmābhyudaya, and Vedanta Deshika’s Pādukāsahasra and Yādavābhyudaya that we find the full-fledged development of Citrakāvya. Among latest poets writing Chitrakavya, I must say there are very few. Shatavadhani Ganesh from Bangalore has composed several Chitrakavya-s, some even extemporaneously. I have been composing Chitrakavya-s for a couple of decades now. Sudhir Krishnaswami, Vasuki, Ganesh Koppalathota, Ramachandra, and Suhas Mahesh are among those I know personally that have been composing Citrakāvya verses now and then. There are several Sanskrit enthusiasts who are fascinated by Citrakāvya and want to try their hand at composing it. However, most of them are mediocre poets whose even normal verses are hard to comprehend. One must always gain good expertise in composing unconstrained poetry before venturing into the domain of Citrakāvya. After all, one learns to be surefooted on the ground before attempting to walk on a rope.

How many different kinds of Chitrakavya are there in all?

There are numerous types and subtypes of Citrakāvya. Knowing their number is not very important. Some are even being created newly. For example, I have created Citrakāvya subtypes such as Anantarākṣarī and Pratipādāpunaruktasvara. In the latter subtype, there is no repetition of a vowel in each of the four lines of a verse. For example -

kaivalyāmbhodhipūrṇendu- (ai, a, ā, o, i, ū, e, u)

strayīmṛgyo vibhātu me | (a, ī, ṛ, o, i, ā, u, e)

śūlī śailasutāceto- (ū, ī, ai, a, u, ā, e, o)

nīrajaikāruṇo hṛdi || (ī, a, ai, ā, u, o, ṛ, i)

Are Chitrakavyas respected among poets? Are they seen as being on par with other forms of poetry?

Citrakāvya is indeed respected by Sanskrit poets who still write in the traditional style. Even Anandavardhana, who called it an imitation of poetry (and not genuine poetry), could not resist the urge to write a “Devīśatakam”, a century of verses on the Mother Goddess that illustrates complicated forms of Citrakāvya. Traditionally, Citrakāvya has been relegated to the status of inferior poetry since it is, unlike superior poetry, not intended to communicate a character’s emotional state to the reader and evoke a joyful aesthetic response in him/her. However, I believe that a whole lot is to do with the poet’s capacity (as already pointed out). A good citrakavi will write a Citrakāvya that is easily understandable and that hides the wonder-evoking element in such an adept manner that the reader is doubly surprised when it is pointed out to him/her later by the poet. The reader would then remark thus – “Wow!! I never knew that such a difficult constraint was lurking beneath an apparently simple, poetically rich, easily understandable verse” 

Being a psychiatrist and poet requires great sensitivity and use of language. Is there a connection between Sanskrit and modern psychology?

Now, this is a territory about which much can be said. My thesis topic in fact was situated in the interface between contemporary psychology, Sanskrit poetics, and Sanskrit literature. To put in a nutshell, Sanskrit poeticians were keen observers and astute theoreticians of mental states and behaviour. Bharata had already worked out the number of mental states that could possibly be communicated by actors to the audience. Furthermore, since others’ (including those of actors and of the characters they imitate) mental states cannot be experienced first-hand, Bharata also theorized that they need to be communicated through their antecedents and consequents. So, for example, if you are aware of the fact that your friend has lost a loved one recently (antecedent) and see him/her shedding tears (consequent), you immediately infer that he/she is going through the mental state of sadness. Bhoja made a significant contribution by linking pleasurable and displeasurable mental states with particular life-goals, personalities, and personality-specific traits. There may be several antecedent-consequent pairs through which a mental state such as pride is communicated. However, none of these pairs are relevant to a character such as Rama because he is never portrayed as experiencing pride in the first place. On the other hand, several of these pairs can communicate pride in Ravana because Ravana repeatedly experiences this mental state. Bhoja theorized that this difference is because of the different life-goals that Rama and Ravana pursue. The former’s life-goal is the ethical pursuit of material wealth and its enjoyment (Dharma) whereas the latter’s life-goal is only to pursue material objects whose acquisition will elevate his social status. Ravana’s pursuit is motivated by a desire to alleviate an underlying fear of losing status. Bhoja links artha (acquisition of material wealth), kāma (enjoyment of material wealth), dharma (ethical acquisition and enjoyment of material wealth), and mokṣa (eternal freedom from matter; abiding in what is unchanging about oneself, namely, one’s Consciousness) with progressively greater mental well-being. I feel, in psychiatric practice, one comes across people who are distressed mostly on account of pursuing the life-goals of artha and kāma. Rarely do people that are caught in an ethical quandary visit a psychiatrist. And seekers of mokṣa almost never ever visit one. The valence (pleasurable/displeasurable nature) of our mental states is an indirect indication of our life-goals. So, if I have been feeling down, angry, or fearful on a particular day, it would do me good to introspect if it is artha or kāma that I have been preoccupied with on that day. And if I feel happy, joyous, or contented on another day, it is equally important to introspect if that is because my thoughts and actions have been ethically sound on that day too. In understanding the characters that I chose for my thesis, I must say I understood myself much better.

What does Chitrakavya say about the creative mind of our ancients?

Like in the case of other knowledge domains, Citrakāvya reveals to us the zeal our ancients had to pursue a subject till its logical end. What are the boundaries of a language? What are the possibilities with the structure of language? How malleable is language? Can we play with the form of a language? Is it a worthwhile endeavour to play with the structure of a language? If yes, for what purpose? Does such an endeavour merit consideration within the larger ambit of poetry? What is the importance of sound in language? If literature is also about listening (and not just reading), then how can its sonorous beauty be enhanced? – these were some of the questions that drove them to theorize about and enlarge the domain of Citrakāvya

Sanskrit as a living language – how can chitrakavya help in creating an interest in Sanskrit?

As already mentioned, the prime objective of Citrakāvya is to create wonder in the reader. Anything that creates wonder can also become an object of admiration and emulation. Hence, Citrakāvya can be a very good starting point for entry into the world of Sanskrit literature. Unfortunately, even those in Sanskrit academia scarcely know about Citrakāvya. The world of wondrous poetry is definitely richer in Sanskrit than in English or other languages that students are exposed to. One “aha” moment while encountering Citrakāvya will go a long way in sustaining interest in Sanskrit.     

Nouf Almarwaai’s visit to CSP

India Foundation’s Center for Soft Power (CSP) is a Chennai-based not-for-profit organisation which is working dedicatedly to pursue the merits of soft power through the various domains of cultural sphere between countries across the world to build strong pro-societal relationships. This is achieved through the conduct of numerous interactions across the society through events, seminars, discussion based forums and organizing conferences.

To cultivate a healthy society, CSP actively works to promote Yoga, which is a key element of soft power in connecting nations. As a part of this theme, it had played a proactive role to engage with Nouf Marwaai, an eminent personality from the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, Founder of Arab Yoga Foundation and a Padma Shri awardee from the Government of India.

@KYM

Center for Soft Power facilitated Nouf to engage with several yogic platforms in Chennai. On August 17, 2019, the first interaction was at Krishnamacharya Yoga Mandiram (KYM) on, a landmark institute and a frontrunner in teaching traditional and contemporary techniques of Yoga to the city’s diverse population. The event was headed by Shri. Sridharan, Trustee and senior mentor of KYM.

Many participants from foreign countries attended the forum with great interest. Nouf spoke on her personal experience and the benefits of practicing Yoga. She stressed on the importance of Yoga and explained how it is a gift of India and that the people of Saudi Arabia have started accepting the practice.

She said that it was inspiration from the teachings of Aurobindo and Krishnamacharya that had a deep impact on her life which helped her to pursue Yoga in true spirit. She also explained how her Arab Yoga foundation is pioneering the efforts to promote Traditional Yoga in Saudi Arabia through her team of 700 professional experts and 10,000 students in the city of Jeddah alone.

CSP facilitated the second important engagement at the Meenakshi Academy of Higher Education and Research in Chennai on August 18. The conference was organised by the Faculty of Yoga Sciences and Therapy. Nouf Marwaai was invited as the Guest of Honour. The event was a productive session with Nouf sharing her personal challenges of life before Yoga and how life had dramatically altered positively after implementing the learned Yogic practices. Many research scholars presented their papers on important findings in Yoga science.

On the same day, the final yet most valuable event was a public talk organised by CSP for Nouf in collaboration with Chettinad Harishree Vidyalayam on 'Prospects of India - Saudi Arabia Soft Power Relations: From Yoga to Diaspora.' The session was dynamic with the topic deliberated on being soft power and its capable outreach which binds communities far and wide through shared interaction and mutual friendship. Nouf also underscored the historical relationship between India and Saudi Arabia that has evolved over the years. Saying that about 25% of Saudi’s expatriate population are Indians, she outlined the similarities of the cultural and family values of both India and Saudi Arabia. She sounded optimistic and expressed hope that the existing Indo-Saudi Arabian bond of friendship can be taken forward to greater levels through renewed values of soft power and culture.

Great Jewish Stars were at the heart of Bollywood

Danny Ben Moshe, the award-winning documentary film maker has spent a long, substantive time researching and piecing together the impact and influence of Jewish superstars in Bollywood through his movie: "Shalom Bollywood: the untold story of Indian Cinema". The film tells the 2,000-year-old Indian Jewish community and its formative place in the Indian film industry.

In this interaction with CSP he speaks about his journey from Jewish public policy to academia and then to film making, aspects of India-Israel soft power relations, and the opportunities and challenges going forward:

Can you explain to us your journey and why and how you took to film making?

I worked in Jewish public policy in Israel and the diaspora, and then went into academia where I was an Associate Professor and director of a research institute in Melbourne, Australia. We wanted to share some of our research through film as well as traditional academic forms, and I went to see a film maker to get advice and help with that. I had a longstanding interest in documentaries which I had eagerly watched on both TV and at film festivals, and while we were talking I mentioned some documentary ideas I had. To cut a long story short, that process led us to make a film together and I was hooked. That was my first film back in 2005, “The Buchenwald Ball” about a group of Holocaust survivors in Melbourne.  Almost 15 years later, I have now made about 11 films. For a while I carried on as an academic with film making on the side and then performed as half academic, half film maker, but a few years ago I became a full time film maker.


Picture source : Danny Ben Moshe

When was the first time you visited India? What has fascinated you about India?

I first went to India soon after my first film, probably in 2006 or 2007. The initial idea was to explore the possibility of making a film about the Jewish actress Nadira who had recently passed away. I wanted to explore what material existed for such a story and who I may interview for such a film, but as a Westerner and first-time visitor to India, I was captivated by a totally different society and civilisation to what I was used to. The mass of people, colours, cacophony of sounds, were something I had never experienced before.  As I delved into India’s Jewish story, and met local Jews, I asked them about-Semitism, or Jew hatred. They all looked at me oddly either to ask me to clarify what anti-Semitism is or why anyone would hate them. India, I was delighted to discover, is probably unique in being the only country in the world where the Jewish community has not experienced any anti-Semitism. As a Jew I found that fascinating and heartening. It made me want to delve deeper into India society and the dynamics that made it tick and explained its Jewish story.

What prompted and intrigued you to study the role of Jews in Indian cinema and how long and arduous was the journey?

The journey began, as many great journeys often do, in an unplanned way. In my University Institute I had an Indian Post-Graduate student working for me who had encountered a few personal problems, such as housing. Knowing that internationals students often don’t known how to navigate the Australian system, &/or landlords try and take financial advantage of them, I stepped in and helped resolve the situation. It was really no big deal, but her father, whom I had met on a visit to Australia, was extremely appreciative that I had helped her out. He started sending me Iittle gifts, such as pens or key rings via his daughter.  These were unnecessary but apparently quite an Indian thing to do. One day the student, Devaki, walked into my office and said, “This is from my father,” and this time, the item he had sent was an obituary about Nadira with a reference to her being Jewish. As the father knew I was Jewish he thought it would be of interest. I had always known there had been Jews in India, but had no idea that there was this Jewish superstar in Bollywood, and that’s really how my “Shalom Bollywood” journey started.

That journey proved to be very long and very arduous. It took me over 10 years to make the film. This was for several reasons.

Firstly, it was very early on in my film career and I was taking on a massive story.

Secondly, from a financial point of view, I was unable to generate film finance. Usually the way it works with documentaries I make for example for Australian TV or British TV, is that they are publicly funded but they must have content about their country i.e., Australia or Britain. This that was not an option with my ‘Shalom Bollywood film”.

Thirdly, it was also challenging because all the Jewish stars had passed away. I needed to find people who knew them and could speak about them. It took me years and I eventually tracked down Ruby, an elderly lady in Sydney and relative of Sulochana; Diana, a relative of David Abraham in Canada, and Rachel Reuben, the former model who is a relative of Rose, in Mumbai. I then had to travel to all these places to interview them which took time and money.

Fourthly, it was a major struggle to track down archive of the Jewish stars that I needed to tell this story. For example, I knew there would be interviews on India radio with the Jewish stars or photos of theme at the Phalke awards, but ultimately had to give up on my search for these and find other ways to tell the story. But necessity is the mother of invention, which is why my film utilises animation and storyboards, which turned out to be effective, fresh and find storytelling devices. However, I wanted the viewers of my film to go away with the sense they have seen the films of the Jewish stars of India, so I included some fairly lengthy segments with excerpts from the films of old Jewish stars. Then the audience goes away with the feeling "Ah, I know Sulochana, I have seen her before. I know Pramila. I know Rose. I know David. I know Nadira". And, you know, hopefully that is a way to remember them and keep them alive. 

Fifthly and finally, it was very arduous because, to be honest, the bureaucracy and even the government film organisations in India are very difficult to liaise with. I explicitly came against corruption where people would only provide relevant materials if I paid a bribe.


Picture source : Danny Ben Moshe

What are some of your noteworthy conclusions with respect to Jews in Indian Cinema?

I think it was a unique confluence of events that led Indian Jews to play the pioneering role they did in Indian cinema. Indian Jews were part of this very modern Anglo-Indian Jewish community at a time when cinema was beginning and it was taboo for Hindu and Islamic women to perform on screen. The Jewish community, and Jewish women in particular, were generally more progressive, and did not share these taboos. In addition to their place in Indian society, Indian Jews also had ties and familiarity with the West and its cinema. Physically, the (Baghdadi) Jewish women had the high cheeks bones and lighter skin that emulated the Hollywood look which made them perfect for the low light conditions of early India cinema. It was just one of those unique moments in history where the above factors came together leading Indian Jews to have the pivotal role they did.

The conclusion I reach is that the course of Indian cinema's history would have been distinctly different, certainly in terms of time frame of developments, without these Jewish stars. But also perhaps without the development of some of the roles such as vamps and other archetypes of the Indian cinema, these characters and their casting would have been different, or would at least have evolved differently. The other conclusion that must be drawn is that as a tiny community, in its peak was only tens of thousands, the impact it had on Indian cinema and society was disproportionate to its size.

Today there is hardly any trace of Bollywood’s Jewish connection? Are there still many Jews in Indian cinema?

Well my first response to that is, even when the great Jewish actors were at the heart of Bollywood or Indian cinema, like Sulochana, Nadira, David, most people didn’t even knew that they were Jewish! When I spoke to cinema historians, journalists and others in India, they had no idea; they thought they might be Christians or Parsis. Today, there is no real trace of Jews in Bollywood other than their legacy and I don’t think we can underestimate that. So perhaps that Jewish presence is felt in the performances of contemporary character actors in the tradition of David or vamps in the tradition of Nadira and Pramila.

Today, Pramila’s son, the actor Haider Ali, who co-wrote "Jodha Akbar", continues to write and act in Bollywood today. The Jewish choreographer Baba Herman, who is seen in my documentary on set, can often be found directing a dance scene in Bollywood today. But the Indian Jewish community is small, just a few thousand, and of course taboos on Hindu and Islamic women are long past, so the unique niche they filled is no longer there. And while she has left India, the granddaughter of famed 1930s actress Miss Rose, Rachel Reuben, continues her film work as an editor in New York.

Apart from acting, what are some of the other fields in which Jews played a significant role in Indian cinema as per your research?

Well, the biggest non-acting role was that by Joseph David Penkar, who wrote the first talkie in Indian cinema; that is a real milestone. It is no coincidence that it was a Jew, who comes from a community with a long tradition of literacy, after all we are the “People of the Book”. And of course, the late great Bunny Reuben, who was Raj Kapoor’s right hand man and publicist, a real giant in off-screen Indian cinema.


Picture source : Danny Ben Moshe

How would you define India-Israel soft power relations through cinema and TV? What are some of the opportunities and challenges going forward?

I think Bollywood and Indian cinema is a massive dimension of Indian soft power. Israeli cinema is also very significant. If you think in terms of "Waltz With Bashir" the documentary, or the current Netflix drama, "Shtisel", these have surprising impact and influence, but are in no way close to Bollywood. Also, they often, in the form of “Waltz With Bashir” and massive Netflix hits like “Fauda”, are about the Israeli-Palestinian/Arab conflict, rather than distracting from it.  I don’t think too many popular Indian films and TV dramas would take the situation in Kashmir for their subject matter.

Israel’s soft power is far more in areas of technology, environment, agriculture etc, and my understanding is that there is great work going on between India and Israel at the present time in these spheres. In terms of opportunities moving forward, I think there is scope for an Israel-India film co-production. Israel very recently signed a co-production treaty between Israel and India and perhaps this is an area for collaboration for the benefit of soft power for both the countries. Indeed, I am currently trying to develop an Israel-India film coproduction based on my “Shalom Bollywood” story.

My film "Shalom Bollywood" had its world premiere at the Mumbai Film Festival where it was reviewed by a Hollywood reporter as “lively, upbeat and entertaining” and it was also screened as part of the Israel Country-In-Focus screening at the Government of India’s International Film Festival at Goa in 2018, where it got a standing ovation.  The film has been a massive hit on the Jewish and India film festival circuit around the world, bridging two cultures and finding common ground between the two civilisations.

Interestingly, when Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu visited India, he held a special outreach with the Bollywood fraternity in Mumbai and the campaign was titled Shalom Bollywood. What are your thoughts on this?

I am familiar with this Netanyahu-Bollywood event because scenes from my documentary were screened at this Bollywood gathering, and it was a real honour for me to have that take place. I think “Shalom Bollywood” was right for this event because Shalom means “Hello” in Hebrew and it was Netanyahu saying "Hello" to the Bollywood fraternity, and it was also Israel, from its highest office, saying "Hello" to Indian cinema. If Bollywood is a word synonymous with India, Shalom is synonymous with Israel, so the name of this event was very apt.

Are you grooming any talent to pursue their passion in Indian cinema from Israel?

I am Jewish but actually an English Jew by birth. I have lived in Israel and hope to live there again, but am currently living in Australia where I have been for 20 years. But the world is a global village and I am looking to make a Jewish Indian drama and I hope it will be an Israel-India-Australia co-production.


Picture source : Danny Ben Moshe

Are there universities in Israel that teach film making and cover the India-Israeli connection in Indian cinema? Do you teach this aspect in these universities and are there any special courses?

There are some fantastic film schools in Israel.  There is the Sam-Spiegel Film and Television School in Jerusalem, the capital of Israel. And there is a film school in Tel Aviv University. I don’t know the specifics of what any of the above are teaching about India and Israel, but if you are studying world cinema, you can’t ignore Bollywood.

While I’d be honoured to work for any film school in Israel, I have no formal connections to any of them because, as I explained I am based in Australia. However, I teach short courses on Jewish films at different Institutions and museums in Australia and around the world, a lot based on my own films. I include "Shalom Bollywood" in these, which always generates a positive response and extensive discussion. 

In Eilat, the southernmost city of Israel, I believe every year there is a festival of Indian cinema. Israel is massive melting pot with people from over 100 countries, including India, and they stay in touch with India and its cinema. As my “Shalom Bollywood” documentary shows, films such as "Mother India", a classic of Indian cinema, have played in Israel. The Eilat event is a big gathering for Indian Jews who would be showcasing latest films from India.

Who knows what will be in the future but I think we can say that the Israel-India relationship will get stronger and stronger. I hope cinema will be one dimension of that. And I hope I will be able to play a small part in that.

‘Shalom Bollywood: the Untold Story of Indian Cinema’ can be watched in Israel and India on demand at https://vimeo.com/ondemand/shalombollywood

You can find out more about Danny’s films at www.identity-films.com

‘I fell to my knees…totally in love with this music’

Emmanuelle Martin, accomplished French pianist and Carnatic musician, speaks about her journey across the two diverse cultures

Emmanuelle Martin was born in a family of western classical musicians. Thirty years ago, her father discovered Carnatic Music (the classical music of South India and started learning singing with Savitry Nair in Paris, who later introduced him to Seetharama Sharma: under whom he studied for many years. He also came in contact with TM Krishna, Carnatic musician and vocalist, and this was how Emmanuelle met her future tutor and guru.

How did you get interested in Indian Classical music? Did your earlier training in music help you to learn Carnatic music?

I was born in a family of western classical musicians. About 30 years ago my father discovered Karnatik Music and started learning singing with Savitry Nair in Paris who later introduced him to  Seetharama Sharma with whom he learnt for many years , he also met TM Krishna back then and they became friends which is how I got introduced to him as my teacher many years later.

Yes and no! 

Besides a sort of natural musical sense due to my earlier music training; I would say it helped me mainly for two things: a sense of practice and a sense of Sruti. 

 From a very early age I learnt and practiced the piano, diligently, daily. This allowed to shape in me the  ‘muscle of practice’ and made it easier to be naturally inclined to many hours of daily singing practice once I started learning singing from TM Krishna in 2004.

The other thing it helped me with is a sense of Sruti. The advantage of the piano is that unless you miss the key or that the piano is out of tune, each note is where it is and there is no risk of being approximate so that definitely educated my ear to Sruti or pitch.

Other than these two things; I had more things to deconstruct from my previous musical training, musical concepts to let go off and start afresh. It was indeed like starting an entirely new discipline.

Is there any common ground between the music of France and India? 

I would say that these two music systems function really differently; they both are music so they do have some common ground of course but their approach, the way they are built and evolve are organically completely different, in my opinion. 

In your opinion do you think it is necessary to understand the culture of a country to appreciate its music?

Yes and No. I think like everything; it depends on many things!

I would say in a way it is not necessary because it depends on why one appreciates or wants to learn music.  In my case, I was at first not interested at all in Indian culture; I was familiar with it due to my father’s implication with India and its music. But I had no interest whatsoever in its culture, customs, Hinduism, temples, gods, goddesses, rituals. I was curious when I was a teenager because it was ‘exotic’; far away from home and my father promised to take me there if I would learn at least the ‘Ganamrutha Bodhini’ first book so i could accompany him in his classes with Sharma sir. 

Many years later, when I was 19, I fell on my knees… totally in love with this music; from one moment to the next it became the most beautiful ‘thing’ I had ever heard or witnessed on this planet! I decided to move to India to learn with my guru. He lived in Chennai so I moved to Chennai.

I remember early on, during the first months when I was there; people would approach me sometimes at my guru’s concerts and ask me if was able to “understand what I was singing”; and of course then  I didn’t; and i didn’t even want to understand. I really truly didn’t care! Because what had touched me to the core was Music itself; which included everything of course but at that stage; intellectually I didn’t need to ‘understand’. I was completely in love with the music and I knew that this love was sincere: so Krishna anna would tell me when I questioned him on that subject not to worry; that my only job was to ‘sing’; and practice and that the ‘rest would come’.

Indeed after a few years, naturally; and after living there and travelling so much all over India to temples, big cities, towns and tiny villages along with my teacher and co-musicians for concerts ; after  living there full time; the flavour and context  of these all these beautiful songs I was learning  started to become more real for me; until a point where the intrinsic  ‘meanings’ of songs would become inseparable even though I would not understand their words by words meaning (and I still don’t); the essence; the subtle communication of the songs seem to ‘get in’ in some mysterious ways, very naturally and subtly, without going through the intellectual centre. I don’t need to know that this word means this or that; but of course, later I can study the words if I want. I always read the translation at some point, sometimes it helps being aware; but what I realise is that often it is superficial information; the real substance of the ‘meaning’ is already in!

The culture therefore; for me, is inseparable from the music; but not the superficial aspect of culture. That for me is perfectly unnecessary. This is why there is never anything that replaces patience and long term commitment. Culture such as the one of India; cannot be learnt in a book or ‘studied’, in my opinion and based on my own experience; the ‘culture’ of the country and regions which is the cradle of Karnatik Music is like a fully flavoured bath that gets ‘in’ subtly and slowly at the price of commitment and surrender. Nothing ever replaces this.

But I also know that now I don’t need to be in India to sing Karnatik music.

I can live in my house in southern France surrounded by (French) cows; eat bread and cheese (it is an image) and practice a raga alapana by the (French)  river down the hill; but of course I steeped into the culture for 10 years. 

And I think it depends on each person too. Karnatik music was not a ‘tool’; an ‘experience” I learnt to enhance my own musical practice or artistic discipline. I gave my life to it - completely.

So yes I think it depends; the students I teach in France don’t necessarily have a connection to India to start with; but those who are sincere and if they persevere, usually; naturally after a while there will be a movement to want to come to India; and be in the cradle of this music. 

But I think this music goes beyond culture; students can be totally touched and moved to the core by this music sitting in my music room in the hills of southern France. Eventually they will feel a connection; I would say it is necessary at some point, but definitely not before a while.

How did you opt for vocal Music instead of instrumental? Was it difficult to get the Sahitya correct?

I have always been in love with singing; it is the VOICE that touched me; even before music itself. It really is the alchemical mix of voice and this music together that really creates something for me. Voice serves Karnatik music; and vice versa. I love the Veena too; and I love the violin, mridangam, the kanjira, the ghatam….but for me there NEVER was a question. If I lost my voice I would probably learn the Veena; but I’m not even sure. I would probably just do gardening then.

YES, getting the sahitya correct was/is one of the hardest part of learning this music for me being French. But I was taught to approach sahitya as music; that it is ‘A’ and not ‘a’ or ‘dh’ and not ‘d’ (for example)  and learn to listen and reproduce exactly the sound that my teacher produced; as ‘purity’ of music and precision in my reproduction of sound; it was never separate from the music itself. Of course some of the letters; were more difficult than others for me to grasp; and some languages easier than others; Tamil definitely being the trickiest to reproduce properly. I think I’m getting closer now; but  it took great effort to learn to really hear the sound right and more than anything reproduce it properly; me not having any ‘storage’ of these sounds in my brain! 

Sometimes I would really (not intentionally) change the meaning of a word…and gracious guru and co-students would laugh…and at least we had some fun; (or tears for me ) in the process; but my teacher never let me get away with approximate pronunciation. I am sure I still have lots of work to do in that domain but I sincerely try my best.

The idea being always not to imitate; but to make mine and reproduce in the best way that I can.

Does the spiritual content of Indian music appeal to you?

Yes very much. I wouldn't say it appeals to me but it is actually completely a part of me. 

What appeals to you most in your travels across India? 

Feel the sacred ground under my feet, sip tea in tea stalls in the streets; walk around the temples and just ‘be there’,  now I am completely in love with deities. I love to walk in Mylapore and sit in the dozens of small temples around the Kapaleeswara temple. Sit and be around the deities - Hanuman, Ganesh … they are very present and alive in my life. I couldn't tell you why… I just love them… now (I really didn’t care for a long time), be on the banks of the sacred rivers of India –Cauveri, Yamuna….etc, be at the samadhis of great saint composers. I feel connected to the ancient culture and the sacred-infused land of India.

What according to you is the similarity between India and France? 

I would say there is a high sense of ‘culture’, very different culture but still. Great taste and sense of aesthetics! Love for the sacred. It obviously manifests very differently in each of these two countries. (And great food!!!)

Is it difficult to get Western audiences to appreciate Indian music?

Yes. It takes time for them to appreciate it; because it needs a certain level of education; but sometimes some people just fall in love with it and then it is just a matter of nurturing their love by initiating them into the dynamics and systems of this music. Usually it really helps them to learn it; even just the basics; to allow them to stay connected to the music.

What other kind of music do you like to listen to?

I love Flamenco. I love Blues. I love rock. I love Gypsy music from Eastern Europe too. I love Micheal Jackson, Jeff Buckley, Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan, Janis Joplin, Nina Simone … and many more.

Is it important to have diverse interests in Music?

I don’t know. I think first focusing on the music one’s learning is more important than anything. Dedicated practice and commitment, then if there are other musical interests, well and good. I think it is important to follow our natural inclinations and tastes whatever they are in music because then you are more ‘unified’ in yourself even if you only dedicate yourself to one art form. There may not be any attraction to any other style of music; fine; but if there is I don’t think it helps to repress it or try at all cost to only focus on Karnatik music (for example).  I  definitely don’t think one needs to know western music to learn Indian music quite the opposite; but later; once one has ‘mastered’ the music to a certain degree; I’m sure listening to diverse  types of music enriches and helps one not become too rigid or to just enrich his or her experience of different sounds rhythms; styles etc.

I listened to only Karnatik music for the first many years of my training. I just didn’t feel like listening to anything else, but then slowly (when close to over dosing!) I started listening to other things again; artists I loved from my ‘previous life’ in France; for enjoyment just to get some fresh air into my head! Dance a bit to a funky beat; take a deep breath and sit again to practice! This helped me to reconnect with my own culture; the imprints and experience of childhood and being a teenager which actually helped me in growing in my own music training and practice. (If anything else just to RELAX!)

You have been working with renowned theatre director Ariane Mnouchkine; teaching Karnatik singing and voice work to 40 comedians of different cultures for their new show ‘Une chambre en Inde’ . What does this entail?

From January 2016 until March 2017, I taught the basics of Karnatik music to a group of 40 comedians from the prestigious French theatre group ‘Théatre du Soleil’ and its director Ariane Mnouchkine based in Paris. Daily and in small groups, I taught them how to use and open their voice; sing loud and clear, confidently and open throated, taught them and practiced with them many hours to develop a sense of Sruti and a certain flavour in their voices (that they needed for their show where they performed Therukoothu). Over the months; they slowly started to be more and more confident in singing out loud; being in touch with their own voice, singing in Sruti and some even started developing slowly a sense of Gamakas, recognitions of ragas etc, and a certain sensitivity to Karnatik music because they could relate it to their own direct experience.

I think some of them really discovered their own voice and got a real taste of what it can be to learn and sing Karnatik music which obviously is different than many fantasies western people often have about singing Indian music (they usually, often imagine something very airy, soft and meditative, something soothing and relaxing…well it can also be that…but far from being only that! At least in the way that I have learnt!). It was grounded, real, raw, and hard sometimes. I think it helped them in their work. 

How do you integrate music into theatre?

For now I don’t. I teach Karnatic music for actors to help them in their work. But it is more for - know-the-process itself of this learning that seems to have great value for theatre work. I don’t even know why yet. That being said; I have been convinced by what I have seen in this domain. So for now I don’t: but maybe someday I will, then I’ll tell you how I integrate it. I think it is very delicate - it takes masters to do it well. If it is not done by people who really know what they are doing (like really!) it brings nothing more but only damages things. So I think if our attempt is to create something truly beautiful (and not just exciting; seducing… etc) one should really be very considerate before to do anything that would at best bring nothing, at worst actually damage things.